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hoosierbitchCan anyone point me towards some good metas about why hating (or disliking) female characters is wrong, why it happens so often, and why they're hated in the first place? I know I've read a lot of good ones, but I neglected to bookmark them, and my googling has thus far been futile. Any links to good meta comms/delicious archives would be greatly appreciated too.
Thanks in advance! :-)
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-12 07:52 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-13 02:09 am (UTC)Sexuality and Slash Fandom by Diaskeuasis delves a bit into the misogynistic overtones of slash, in an historical context (as the subtitle, 'Or, from "We're Not Gay, We Just Love Each Other" to "For reasons that don't need exploring at this juncture, Fraser is sucking Ray's cock" suggests).
"Fanfic Symposium: When Worlds Collide" discusses male privilege and how it can infringe on fandom 'female spaces'.
QFS Revisited by Cathexys discusses slash as a sexual orientation or action performed by women, with some discussion of the anti-woman sentiments slash as a genre is noted for.
A post by Patrick Hayden has a brief discussion of the Connie Willis-Harlan Ellison Hugo incident of a few years ago, and its implications for women in fandom. (It's part 3 in the linked post.)
My Buffyholism is Showing - Women, Connection by Gabrielleabelle is a great discussion on Buffy as a fandom that drew in many women, with comparison to other shows. Interestingly, it's not the "strong female characters" she links with Buffy's success, but rather "number of connections between female characters, of all stripes". (There are charts!) Sort of the opposite of misogynistic fandom -- this is "what makes a female-centric/woman-positive fandom", essentially.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-13 05:17 am (UTC)How about all the ladies? by
The flip side by Bookshop is about heteronormativity being widespread in slash, and the often misogynistic results: I don't want to use the word "hate" about any female character, period. But that said, I *do* hate that it's so hard to turn off the automatic negative voice in my brain, because we're trained to hate women and girls--by society, but also by m/m slash fandom itself.
Mary Sue - testing the boundaries by
The FanLore page has some links mixed in with a pretty detailed overview of the major ways in which female characters are treated by fandom: ignored, reviled, pushed out of the way to make room for slash, the rarity of f/f...
A Fandom Misogyny Bingo Card!
Pardon me briefly, I must vent includes some great anecdata regarding female characters' treatment by fandom and how it seems to have a double standard (a Stargate-fandom comment, a Criminal Minds comment, and a Torchwood comment particularly stand out to me as things I have either seen myself, or become aware of despite not being in that fandom!)
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-14 05:15 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-15 08:02 pm (UTC)Thank you so much for this--I really needed to be able to put some of the troubling posts that I've seen creeping into both of my main fandoms into perspective. This has helped restore my faith in the intelligence of fandom, given me ideas for how I can improve the portrayal of women in my stories, and helped me to be able to articulate my own stance on the issues much more clearly and comprehensively.
THANK YOU!
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-16 01:01 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-12 08:29 pm (UTC)While I continue searching, try this conversation.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-12 09:14 pm (UTC)On female characters...by
Quoting at length... by
Lots of interesting arguments in the comments, along with links to other points of view and other places to read.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-12 11:02 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-12 11:46 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-15 07:55 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-15 11:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-12 06:56 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-12 07:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-12 09:26 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-13 04:54 pm (UTC)It's not that one can't ever dislike a female character, but there are certain disturbing patterns that often surface in the threads of dislike.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-14 04:01 am (UTC)I am, contrary to my flip remark, aware of how how often female characters are demonized for being either the love interest, or just for stepping out of a traditional role. Women (who also dominate the world of fanfic fandom) are often harsher critics of other women than men - and culturally, women often play a powerful role in disempowering themselves and their sisters and perpetuating ways to disenfranchise themselves in many ways. So, yes, I agree with you in many ways--BUT.
And the but is that despite that, I try in my reading and watching (limited though it is) not to allow that--and yes, THAT encompasses many things, from race to sexuality to gender to everything else--to influence me in whether or not I like a character or don't like him her. I know it DOES. And in some ways, I suggest it should--those things inform a character just as much as whether he or she is tall or short or pretty or intelligent. Also, I'm not immune to the forces of culture or background or upbringing or even popular opinion which influence my opinion on everything from what I wear to what I watch to why I like or dislike a character, even if I like to think I have independent opinions.
SO. My point is, that I try to judge any character: Sara, Uhura, whoever, on whether or not I like them as a character, which encompasses a lot of things, but is pretty much a gut reaction. And while I try to judge them independently of other factors, I can't ignore that they are women. I don't think I should. But still, I try to judge them first and foremost as characters: do I like them, do I think they are well drawn, do I like the way they are portrayed or played? I think, for me, regardless of gender, those are the most important things.
But yeah, pretty much, I agree with you. Fan reactions often baffle me. (I don't know the other characters you cite, but in terms of Uhura, I adored her, and didn't understand the critiques--coupled with the fact that I didn't read a lot of fic that portrayed her as much beyond Spock's doe-eyed love interest, which annoyed me, so I just started reading a lot of Kirk-centric fic. Even if I got into the fandom to find Spock/Uhura, because I loved the glimpses we saw, and she made Spock--who I kind of really disliked in the movie--a lot more interesting to me.).
Long ramble is long! Also, not very well thought out, which always worries me in these types of discussions. Forgive me!
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-16 07:24 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-17 04:19 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-15 08:14 pm (UTC)Yup. This. Thank you. ♥
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-16 07:24 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-15 11:22 pm (UTC)You hate, we got it, detail not necessary. (I really, really need a sarcasm font).
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-16 07:26 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-16 07:14 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-16 07:23 pm (UTC)For example, here are three statements that roughly mean the same thing, and yet are presented very differently and non-equivalently:
"I dislike Faith from BtVS because she embraced the stereotypical bad-girl presentation complete with stereotypical hypersexuality; if I knew her IRL I'd tell her she didn't have to."
"I dislike the way the writers implied that Faith was sexually promiscuous along with her other faults. I don't think that was a necessary aspect to add to her characterization."
"Faith was such a slut, ugh. I bet all her boyfriends caught crotch rot."
[Sorry for all the edits, the word 'about' did not want to behave]
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-16 07:38 pm (UTC)Life is a learning experience. So if I do feel that a character is over-sexualized (I have a few, both male and female), stating that is not necessarily wrong. But if I demeaned their sexuality and tied their gender in too, that would be bad.
Or did I get that wrong?
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-16 09:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-17 04:10 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-17 02:58 pm (UTC)And my experience is that most 'haters' are willing to give Dr. McCoy's obvious racism a pass - while calling out Uhura as an 'uppity' bitch. They call Martha, and Rose, and Amy and Donna 'Mary Sues' as though The Doctor wasn't the biggest wish fulfillment character of all time. They are willing squee over Keller even though he's a murderer and give Mozzie's behavior a pass while bitching over Sara's shoulder pads and bemoaning the fact that she is written so unrealistically (in WC no less - such an example of how the world really works /sarcasm). Pick your fandom: lather, rinse and repeat.
In other words, female characters, particularly female canon love interests, are consistently held to higher, more difficult standards than the male characters (including often, the male leads) from the same show - and then are hated when they fail. That's misogynistic behavior. And the purest of individual motives won't matter to me if you are singing with that choir.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-17 03:32 pm (UTC)Because the only way to actually label someone with something like that is if you see that particular person repeat the same behavior over and over again.
And my experience is that most 'haters' There you go with labels again. :p
So someone may dislike Mozzie's actions and hate Sara's shoulder pads (I did not even realize she wore them, /clueless), and also find Peter irritating. What would that make them?
And what about the other forms of misogyny in fandom? Sara is adored, but she is sexualized and fetishized by fans who supposedly love her. Most of the fics or discussions about her revolve around her clothes, how she looks with Neal, how she's perfect for Neal, how she's good...for Neal. It's not just the fans; it's the writers of course, who started the whole conversation.
I once asked people in my journal if that was fair -- to make Sara's character be all about Neal, and no one could really say anything, except that "That isn't the point". Well, no. But shouldn't it be? Shouldn't we want better for female characters outside of fandom?
What about Elizabeth? Fans 'love' her...but most of the time they ignore her in favor of P/N. Oh, sure, they make sure El is fine with it, but she isn't there. She's out of town at her sister's, or out of town for Burke premier events. Anything to get her out of the way so the boys can have fun. :p Half the time her point of view isn't even written. When fans do focus on her, a lot of the time it's in order to get the guys (particularly Peter) to realize their true lurve.
Or am I wrong? Is that not misogyny?
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-17 03:55 pm (UTC)1) A pattern of behavior from a single fan.
2) It's not biased thinking to use past experience to analyze current information. That's the only advantage experience gives you.
3) You're right it's a label - but saying "the individual who dislikes the canon female love interest" gets old fast. ;p
4) If someone dislikes Mozzie, hates Sara's shoulder pads and finds Peter irritating, they're probably not watching WC!
5) New topic. There are lots of forms of misogyny in TV and in fandom, I was discussing a single aspect. The fact that there are other forms doesn't negate my point of view.
6)If you want better female characters - write them. Don't cut down the ones that exist and then ignore them in fiction.
7) What about Elizabeth? As I said in #5, new topic. If you really want, we can have a separate discussion about Elizabeth's role and the Mom, Saint, Therapist function she is often slotted into. And yes, that can be a form of misogyny.
I'm off to work!
*Edited to fix a typo in (6).
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-12 07:31 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-15 08:15 pm (UTC)Also, your icon is perfection.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-15 08:35 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-13 12:01 am (UTC)Connecting With Female Characters in Geek Television
This one is more fandom-specific but might be helpful: Five Invalid Reasons for Disliking Female Characters
Breaking Bad, Medium and Withholding Women
Here is one from tvtropes.org that discuss Acceptable Female Goals
Misogony in Fanlore"
They're not all metas but I hope that gets you started, at least.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-13 05:06 pm (UTC)http://misscam.livejournal.com/363839.html
http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/10/15/on-hating-female-characters/
http://geekfeminism.org/2010/10/05/connecting-with-female-characters-in-geek-television/
http://dagas-isa.dreamwidth.org/317778.html
http://www.racialicious.com/2011/10/18/fandom-and-its-hatred-of-black-women-characters/
the links I included here: http://halfamoon.livejournal.com/258569.html?thread=2012937#t2012937
http://hooked-on-heroines.dreamwidth.org/
http://so-sue-me.dreamwidth.org/
http://shes-awesome.dreamwidth.org/
(no subject)
Date: 2012-02-15 11:24 pm (UTC)